Instagram post by @modern.paladin Modern Paladin

The concept of the “lull” makes me cringe. Unfortunately, the bad guy has an equal say in the gunfight. When it comes to any perceived “lull” or break in the action, the bad guy has even more control. Common LE Firearms doctrine teaches administrative actions during this magic time, such as tactical reloads. Understand this now, there is no such thing as a “lull” because it’s start, stop, and duration are 100% out of your control. No one will ever be able to tell you when it’s happening or what it looks like. It’s make-believe training because it isn’t repeatable, predictable or definite. Don’t go looking for a lull, or think you’re ever in one. It isn’t. You aren’t. You can’t stop working until it’s over 100%. IMO trainers should dump the concept or seek to heavily clarify the idea. Change my mind. #tacticaltraining #tacticalreload #tacreload #speedload #gunfight #gunfightingnotshooting #gunfighting #firearmstraining #firearmsinstructor #lawenforcementtraining #policetraining #trainingnottrained #handguntraining #rifletraining #pistoltraining

47 Comments

  • 13w ago modern.paladin modern.paladin

    @knockoutlights thx for your addition! Good stuff mike and well said

  • 13w ago 2alpha2quit 2alpha2quit

    I disagree but acknowledge the chance that there may not be a lull in the fight. However, lots of reasons for lulls in firefights and for lots of factors. I never been in a firefight where the exchange of fire was just continuous. Also, considering all those factors, I won’t say that a lull is bound to happen either but for the most part, it can happen and it’s up to us to take that opportunity or create other opportunities to gain advantage. Unless there is a manual for firefights, this caption is a bit of an absolute.

  • 13w ago 2alpha2quit 2alpha2quit

    @knockoutlights Agreed

  • 13w ago shooter45acp shooter45acp

    I agree. Most gunfights will be won or lost with the rounds in your gun. Although people (in my case, other officers) need to know how to Tac-load or reload with retention. The problem is though they will NOT invest the time needed to become proficient at that type reload. Therefore, it seems like wasted effort as a trainer to teach something they won’t invest time in to learn and likely won’t use if they are in a gunfight.

  • 13w ago pewpewpopo pewpewpopo

    @knockoutlights said exactly what I was thinking but didn't know how to articulate. I think the issue isn't so much the semantics of the word "lull" as much as it is the failure to fully flesh out the idea behind it so students truly understand the purpose and appropriate timing for tac reloads. Verbiage matters, but proper contextual understanding is what I think we're really after.

  • 13w ago texas_lawman texas_lawman

    I don't think the term "lull" should be understood as a time period in which one can lower their guard. It is simply an often brief reprieve from incoming rounds when things like tac reloads, radio communication if need be, etc. could be conducted with haste. Always focused on the threat area.

  • 13w ago chaotic.canine chaotic.canine

    @2alpha2quit likewise, agreed!!

  • 13w ago armedthreatsolutions armedthreatsolutions

    “Lulls” can occur during military battles which is where that whole concept comes from but in LE shootings “lulls” are almost non existent. We worry way too much about tac reloads. On the inservice firing line our slide lock reloads look like shit but most of our officers do a decent tac reload, this should be the inverse. 🤦‍♂️

  • 13w ago armedthreatsolutions armedthreatsolutions

    @tommy_freefieldtraining same here. I think too much training time is dedicated to tac reloads when it could be spent on something more useful.

  • 13w ago id_260 id_260

    @knockoutlights 👈🏻 what he said!

  • 13w ago armedthreatsolutions armedthreatsolutions

    @knockoutlights Those situations a tac reload would be applicable so then we must ask how often those situations arise in OIS and allot training time accordingly. I can’t speak for every dept but at mine most officers are more proficient with a tac reload than a slide lock reload and I think that is backwards. It’s a reflection of training time spent on each type.

  • 13w ago bart3054 bart3054

    My worry was the lull was actually a flanking maneuver by the adversary. Empty gun reload when you have to, Tac reload when you want to. The whole “lull in gunfight and you have cover thing irks me”. What if I only have concealment but an obvious need for more lead vitamins to be dispensed?

  • 13w ago modern.paladin modern.paladin

    @2alpha2quit that makes total sense Kawa. Do you think the LE shooting environment is pretty consistent w military incidents? I’d think the LE OIS is probably a shorter duration mainly bc we deal w 1-2 threats most commonly

  • 13w ago modern.paladin modern.paladin

    @bart3054 yep, just another good intentioned concept which gets misappropriated and applied incorrectly

  • 13w ago knockoutlights knockoutlights

    @armedthreatsolutions certainly to each their own but if a tac reload is being initiated by officers counting rounds, I have an issue with that.

  • 13w ago armedthreatsolutions armedthreatsolutions

    @knockoutlights I’m not sure if they are counting or if it’s programming that results in “I shot so now I must tac load”. In my opinion if I had 60 min of training time to teach reloads I’d use 59 on emergency/slide lock reloads and the rest on tac. My reasoning being if the gun is dry then the fight is probably still going so the stakes are extremely high. That process needs to be solid whereas a tac reload isn’t designed to be fast or be used when rounds need to be fired immediately. I think one(tac reloads) are a luxury item and the other (slide lock reloads) is a must have considering the stakes if you fail.

  • 13w ago modern.paladin modern.paladin

    @armedthreatsolutions 👍🏻 I’m on board with this methodology. At my agency we’ve gotten away from training tac reloads. I’m of the same mind, if there’s shooting to be done, use the bullets currently in the gun. Gambling on an admin task on the chance you may need more ammo is opening the flood gates for disaster. With more training time I’m confident I could get our shooters to be more proficient with both forms or reloads and the circumstances in which they make sense, but with limited time I’d rather focus on empty reloads. I see the same thing, “I shot, I must tac reload”. What I try to impress is the tac has 2 places: when you have lethal cover from a partner, and when moving from one setting to another post-engagement.

  • 13w ago knockoutlights knockoutlights

    @armedthreatsolutions yeh man, totally agree. For all intensive purposes, a tac reload is an administrative function for most people, or should be. It’s only when you’re talking team tactics and some remote circumstances that you would elect to do that. This is all providing, you have the piece of mind to consider it under stress. Tac reload is another low frequency issue that people debate on. Run the weapon until it stops firing and reload it takes a lot less brain cells 😂

  • 13w ago modern.paladin modern.paladin

    @knockoutlights 💯👍🏻

  • 13w ago bill.regina bill.regina

    As an AAResponse....when the fight is over..or we think it is.. we need to teach officers to improve their position/ move....(not scan.)..assess their needs..ammo, medical, and insure by is done. We see more cases of bad guy Lazarus syndrome then ever being attacked from behind ....nothing wrong with teaching a proper reload with retention or tac reload in context. No reason to throw away good ammo and insure gun is full...again all at proper time.

  • 13w ago preeder98 preeder98

    I totally agree but I think this more applies to the LE world. Lulls in the fight are very common for military engagements and provide opportunities for ammo management and a chance to regroup. Certainly not a time to let your guard down however the brief pause in action can afford you opportunities to gain a tactical advantage. LE gunfights are likely to be much more brief, personal, and likely won’t afford you a “lull”.

  • 13w ago modern.paladin modern.paladin

    @preeder98 that makes sense, good insight 👍🏻

  • 13w ago modern.paladin modern.paladin

    @bill.regina well said Bill

  • 13w ago spartansteveodom spartansteveodom

    @modern.paladin This is a great post.I think you’ve hit it spot on when you talk about doing tech reloads with lethal cover or moving from one setting to another.

  • 13w ago preeder98 preeder98

    Definitely no lulls in the fight when crackhead Joe is running you down with a knife haha

  • 13w ago spartansteveodom spartansteveodom

    @spartansteveodom tac not tech reloads ...

  • 13w ago cjhrpr cjhrpr

    @modern.paladin I can only speak to the LE side, but I agree that LE shootings are probably much shorter with less actors involved (both good and bad guys) than a typical MIL engagement. More chance for a "lull" when less people can have input on the incident and its duration. I like the idea posed by others that the idea of a "lull" needs to be clarified and better explained and maybe change the accepted terminology. @immediateactionconcepts posted something similar about explaining concepts and terminology earlier this week.

  • 13w ago cjhrpr cjhrpr

    @armedthreatsolutions At quals, I usually see reloads of both types that look like hell. I'm pretty sure because no one actually practices. If they shoot off duty at all. Lots of making $ into noise. But that's a whole other subject.

  • 13w ago cjhrpr cjhrpr

    @modern.paladin that brings up another training issue. Gun manipulations on the move. Static line drills is one thing. Moving your feet and doing same reload etc is another.

  • 13w ago shieldspikellc shieldspikellc

    @modern.paladin I have to agree, a tac reload is something I want to do. The timing of it makes sense to me because, the fight is over or having favorable conditions has presented itself (cover,overwatch,opposition has disengaged)

  • 13w ago pewpewpopo pewpewpopo

    I think one narrow way in which tac reloads are useful is reinforcing the idea that just because the fight seems over, you still need to prep for whatever could be next. We all know the guys that holster up nearly empty guns between strings of fire, and then do admin reloads with their gun in the holster. Talk about wasting a perfectly good opportunity to practice a tac reload at perhaps the most sensible time (after all, if things have slowed down enough that you can holster, you can probably do a tac reload first.) Unless there is a VERY compelling reason not to (such as a sudden need to switch to non-lethal force), we should be discouraging students from holstering guns that aren't full. Holstering a gun that isn't topped off is an act of complacency.

  • 13w ago tommy_freefieldtraining tommy_freefieldtraining

    @armedthreatsolutions Here is my question. Does anyone know of an example in LE where an ofc with a double stack pistol tac loaded and it was critical to the fight? I.E. He went back and used that retained ammo. I have been unable to find one, but there isn't exactly a database for these things.

  • 13w ago armedthreatsolutions armedthreatsolutions

    @tommy_freefieldtraining I have never heard of one. I think officers could never train tac reloads and be just fine

  • 13w ago tommy_freefieldtraining tommy_freefieldtraining

    @armedthreatsolutions now let's look at it from the other angle. Does anyone know of a time when I cap armed with 46 plus rounds for the pistol was killed because he ran out if ammo? If there are cases were they because he dropped live ammo out of the gun instead of tac loading?

  • 13w ago armedthreatsolutions armedthreatsolutions

    @tommy_freefieldtraining I have heard of a couple of shootings where the officer ran completely out of ammo or was close but those are few and far between. Tim Grammins comes to mind as he was almost out of ammo but he went to slide lock both reloads.

  • 13w ago tommy_freefieldtraining tommy_freefieldtraining

    @armedthreatsolutions That is what makes me ask why we even bother teaching and insisting on tac loads during training. I'd rather have one of my probationers come to me being really good at speed loading (which we know comes up frequently) than even knowing how to tac load. Honestly, I'd rather just retention reload if given the option between tac loading and retention reloading. In my experience 99.9% of cops, myself included, are absolute shit at tac loading and will never put in the time to get good enough at it for it even to be a viable option in real life. Let alone a better option.

  • 12w ago valhallawoodforge valhallawoodforge

    @preeder98 I literally was coming here to say this! 💯💯💯

  • 12w ago valhallawoodforge valhallawoodforge

    @preeder98 better to learn how to move when firing than super cool admin/tac reloads

  • 1w ago blacklabelarmory blacklabelarmory

    It’s on, and it’s over.... unless we’re talking Somme circa 1916

  • 1w ago modern.paladin modern.paladin

    @blacklabelarmory 👍🏻👍🏻 muzzle loading was for sure a lull haha

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